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Post by hanzi83 on Oct 5, 2017 18:47:31 GMT -5
Breaking Kayfabe is the worst sin that can be committed on a wrestling show. I'm fine with peeling behind the 4th wall. If CM Punk wants to reveal his real name is Phil Brooks I'm good. As soon as he mentioned that Hunter's name is Paul then he sinned. Don't try to explain it. WWE was wrong for airing that. Especially because right after getting real, Phil Brooks hit Paul Levesque with the mic, and Paul acted like it hurt enough to knock him to the floor defenceless. Once you go real you can't do fake pro wrestling physicality. EDIT: I disagree with almost everything u wrote in your 1st post and your phone call. I suppose if Enzo had a ghost writer that could be turned into a storyline. But I don't want an acknowledgement that there's a team of writers who prepare everyone's material. Sami Zayn being on KO's dvd should not be mentioned on the WWE broadcasts. I accept that WWE produces real world documentaries. Lets keep them separate. Daniel Bryan went from a loser to a winner because the fans cheered louder for him. He channeled that into a championship run. Fans have the power to raise you up from a hold. If Curt Hawkins ever said that he dives then the audience should roll their eyes. It should be treated like a kid who loses and says "I wasn't even trying". Dolph Ziggler has never said he's required to take dives and never should. Okay you can disagree but it doesnt mean wwe or the wrestling world hasnt moved into that territory and when real life issues are fucking with what peoples reactions are to the product it shiws me that the wrestling world has been moving in that direction and by the way when I said things were scripted I wasnt saying the actual matches or saying they fake matches and acknowledge that but throughout its history they have always specified sports entertainment and bring it up constantly especially when Brock is saying he is brunging legitimacy back into the company and when people cut promos saying they want to be a professional wrestler and not a sports entertainer what does that entail in the storylne? If things in real life in other industries are orchestrated or scripted why couldnt the world in wrestling be that and again I wasnt saying every single element has to be exposed but under the guise of sports entertainment you can say thats why ppl get away with committing horrific crimes because under the guise of s reality show they are alowed to break the law. You cant blur the lines one minute and then go into stuff the general audience doesnt care about.... especially when they are breaking character with these real life moments like the susan g comen segments ... and they aew the ones who referenced Owens dvd and Sami Zayn acknowledging on their television show im not saying show the writers etc but in their own program they referred to Steph head of creative... nothing I have suggested is out of thin air its existed in their programming and all Im sayung if you expose little elements from it to bring in a more reality based product it would come off better And you are telling me fans cheering Bryan is what made him not be a loser anymore? You could say that people playing up a gimmick (and they have mentioned gimmicks before) couldnt really focus on his true skill because he was focusing on being entertaining rather than wrestling... thats the kind of stuff Im talkijg about .. you dont have to expose EVERYTHING like worked matches etc but show that in WWE there are certain rules and use the past Like Dusty Rhides in the WWE was a sports entertainer why didnt he ever get a world title shot and why was he a shell of his former self in WWE than the version we saw in NWA WCW? Ill say this though that whether people want to admit or not Vince etc know what they are doing and stuff on social media and in real life is an extended part of kayfabe and if that wasnt true half the interest in the product wouldnt be the real life stuff and its like that is the new kayfabe ans Im not talking about every element but a good protion could be used to blur the lines and if the ultimate sin is breaking kayfabe then people in the business wouldnt be profiting off exposing “insider”stuff all the time and people in the media wouldnt be talking about the real life issues behind the scenes because in every entertainment form the behind the scenes stuff has become a part of the show and without being the attitude era they have found a way to have their roster in “real life” swear more and have controversial opinions and then when their main product starts its a PG show.. these people know what they are doing ... And if feuds werent scripted in storyline time to time then how do you explain Wyatts and Orton fighting at night and then it being the day tike at the ppv because whether people like itmor not there are things that didnt hit well with the audience they are making it more than obvious that stuff in storyline is scripted... like Taker isnt really a dead guy but in his real life kayfabe life he could be a part of a satanic cult and his Taker person is full of theatrics Fans will complain abiut things not making sense all day and every day but when there is a possible way to undo all the convoluted shit they have given us they will shit on it too and Im nit sayung its the best idea but it would definitely make more people watch if you expose a conspiracy that is going on and maybe the way wrestling ismpresented is why other people dont take it seriously or people have to hide they are wrestling fans and then having them come to forums to bitch non stop anout the product being shit and the storylijes are too scripted If you want to stay within storyline then guess what then we shouldnt care about the backstage stuff then but we do and in this era where the internet is not some underground haven it was in the 90s it is impossible for us not to be affected by backstage news and it interfering with the product otherwise Reigns would be over as a good guy which he isnt supposed to be becsuse he is a mindern day heel who is pretendjng to be good
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Post by Zekey on Oct 6, 2017 0:35:22 GMT -5
A lot of what you're writing is trying to explain WWE's mistakes. They are wrong for calling it sports-entertainment. They should pretend its a sport. They're wrong for having heels endorse Susan G Komen. I remember, around draft 2016, Byron Saxton said Brock Lesnar added legitimacy to a brand. I disagree with that being said on TV too. Cena is a fighter as much as Lesnar is. The Zayn/Owens DVD situation is sticky. You have to mention the DVD to advertise it. I'd argue that Zayn is necessary in the telling of KO's story. And air DVD clips in commercials. Stephanie is "One of the Principle Owners of WWE". If they called her head of creative (on raw) that's wrong. They are wrong for mentioning "gimmicks" and most insider terms. WWF Dusty focused on entertaining the fans. Fine. That's a good explanation for why he wasn't the NWA Dusty. You see how you didn't break kayfabe to explain that. Social Media is not an extended part of kayfabe. Woods isn't Austin Creed. Emma isn't Tenille Dashwood. 1% of wrestlers are keeping kayfabe on twitter.
Yes the ultimate mega super ultra sin is breaking kayfabe. Exploiting inside knowledge is fine. A good example of profiting off of inside stuff is when Neville mentioned Enzo Amore was kicked off a tour bus. Or when KO yelled Shane could survive a helicopter crash but couldn't count the pin. I don't try to explain Wyatt and Orton fighting at night when it was 5pm California time. That was wrong. Undertaker breaks the shit out of kayfabe. I seek the behind the scenes info to understand better the on-screen presentation. I'm also smart enough to realise behind the scenes, is behind the scenes. Yes Roman Reigns is being rejected for reasons outside of the WWE's universe. Yes it interferes with his babyface run. The fans don't have to stay within storyline tho.
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Post by hanzi83 on Oct 6, 2017 3:21:10 GMT -5
A lot of what you're writing is trying to explain WWE's mistakes. They are wrong for calling it sports-entertainment. They should pretend its a sport. They're wrong for having heels endorse Susan G Komen. I remember, around draft 2016, Byron Saxton said Brock Lesnar added legitimacy to a brand. I disagree with that being said on TV too. Cena is a fighter as much as Lesnar is. The Zayn/Owens DVD situation is sticky. You have to mention the DVD to advertise it. I'd argue that Zayn is necessary in the telling of KO's story. And air DVD clips in commercials. Stephanie is "One of the Principle Owners of WWE". If they called her head of creative (on raw) that's wrong. They are wrong for mentioning "gimmicks" and most insider terms. WWF Dusty focused on entertaining the fans. Fine. That's a good explanation for why he wasn't the NWA Dusty. You see how you didn't break kayfabe to explain that. Social Media is not an extended part of kayfabe. Woods isn't Austin Creed. Emma isn't Tenille Dashwood. 1% of wrestlers are keeping kayfabe on twitter.
Yes the ultimate mega super ultra sin is breaking kayfabe. Exploiting inside knowledge is fine. A good example of profiting off of inside stuff is when Neville mentioned Enzo Amore was kicked off a tour bus. Or when KO yelled Shane could survive a helicopter crash but couldn't count the pin. I don't try to explain Wyatt and Orton fighting at night when it was 5pm California time. That was wrong. Undertaker breaks the shit out of kayfabe. I seek the behind the scenes info to understand better the on-screen presentation. I'm also smart enough to realise behind the scenes, is behind the scenes. Yes Roman Reigns is being rejected for reasons outside of the WWE's universe. Yes it interferes with his babyface run. The fans don't have to stay within storyline tho. Me explaining WWE mistakes is why its important to establish past shit and I know you are saying its bad to break kayfabe but guess what they will keep doing it and keep blurring the lines and whatefer happens outside WWE is also kind of a storyline as well to some extent because most behind the scenes stuff in all entertainment and politics to some extent is kind of a work and the reason I brung up their names is because their ring names are sports entertainment names in storyline like Zigglers name in kayfabe is still Nick but Ziggler is his stage name and the only reason Im brunging this up to change it because Im sick of forum discussions and podcast radio shows erc obsessing over kayfabe being broken and it dominates most of the discussion, People think Im saying it should be like WCW or by scripted totally but what Im saying like stuff w opening promos and ineruptions obviously witgj storyline that would be something orchestrated like how UFC has ppl talking shit in promos ... those are scripted to some extent so why wouldnt WWE in storyline being doing that and the reason why Im mentioning exposing it so then it can be established in storyline as a sport ... More and more stuff will happen behind the scenes that will affect the product and it is done on purpose in my opinion because this is what the reality era is and it extends outside the program and agaun these are just my delusional theories but it seems we wont agree on this and that is fine but there are alot of people who like my idea maybe none of the LAW fanbase but this post was just intended on expanding on the call because they give you 2 minutes on the air and it was for the hosts to read it unless the hosts are chatting with me on fake accounts which does not surprise me but regardless I know I wont convince people but whether people like it or not its going this way and WWE have been dropping those seeds especially since the Punk pipebomb and they have intended on stuff like that when you have Kofi Kingston saying “This is me talking not my character”my point is that stuff is out there to use as an example and establish that it needs to be changed Sometimes I think the internet people want it to continue to be inconsistent so they can just complain about or people in the media can profit off of it. But I have spent way too much energy in this thread explaining it rather than just have the same typical discussion about it that gets old after a while and has not changed since 1998 Im creating a new layer but I have to understand peoole will shit on it and hate people who put too much thought into something because it inconveniences on how they analyze it because we have to analyze within a box and pretend that the WWE doesnt know what they are doing like they arenr sacrificing their product while still keeping it afloat so when Triple H takes over it gets better and we embrace it and thats why things suck but Vince is a bigger genius than people think he creates the narrative to him being hated while still having the people who blindly think he is a genius for the wrong reasons but regardless the guy is a genius and he knows where the business needs to go and he is slowly dong it and this social media shit is not just some accident
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Post by Zekey on Oct 6, 2017 10:31:06 GMT -5
When Kofi said he hated country music and not his character, he was wrong.
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Post by hanzi83 on Oct 6, 2017 20:31:24 GMT -5
When Kofi said he hated country music and not his character, he was wrong. You can keep saying examples Im listing are wrong that they did it but point is they did it and th will keep doing it and whatever transpires outside of the “program”will affect how people percieve things especially when there is so much coverage 24/7 about everything that goes on which will be used to bring up in promos. It wojt change the fact that WWE is going this way and have hinted at it since the pipe bomb promo and especially when the lawsuit w Punk starts to get heated again and it will be heated again. This is what they mean when they say we are in the reality era and even when WWE does not know what they are doing they know what they are doing because the product is being dumbed down so we embrace Hunter taking over to rebuild it again and sometimes I think its in the best interest for message boards like reddit which are employed shills and even media outlets for things to be the way they are so we constantly analyze it a limited way and feel smarter for thinking we know how to book things when the WWE know what they are doing even if they look like they are out of touch ... its supposed to symbolize change is coming eventually and with them connected to Trump sooner or later they will get exposed for shit they have done and it will play out like its supposed to be but that is just my delusional theory and I have no facts to back it up so please take it with a grain of salt or howeever the saying goes
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Post by Milky on Oct 8, 2017 9:50:28 GMT -5
I haven’t wrote on this board in a while but I wanted to adress my call and clarify I was not expecting to go a Vince Russo route with “breaking kayfabe” but WWE itself have claimed sports entertainment in their program and have referred to characters and stage names. You have had people within storylines bringing up legitimacy in the WWE and what would sports entertainment within kayfabe entail. My whole purpose of breaking the fourth wall would not do it like Russo did but for the purpose of exposing what has gone on and use past history to showcase this conspiracy. in Kayfabe WWE is the most corrupted company when they have fuck finishes or have ppl in shitty gimmicks. You could say ppl have to take dives or have a gimmick that is so unrealistic ... since they have done convoluted stuff over the years this would be an attempt to undo what they have done and you can easily explain this to the general audience and thats why you are seeing more and more ppl on social media breaking kayfabe because I believe it is supposed to be lifitng the curtain a little.In real life Vince claimed sports entertainment because he didnt want to pay a tax if it was presented real so why wouldnt elements in WWE be scripted and you can explain scripted promos and why certain people lose but then suddently become winners like Daniel Bryan does. You could say someone like Santino who is a legit shoot fighter was saddled with a sports entertainment gimmick and he never utilized his full skill but when he could showcase that he almost won the Rumble or almost beat Daniel Bryan at Elimination Chamber ...so my whole purpose for pitching it is because Wwe keeps incorporating more... hell you could even say that people getting along in real life behind the scenes are ppl being cordial like if you wanted to address why Sami Zayn is on Owens Dvd you could say that in their personal lives they keep it peaceful because Kevin Owens kid still likes Zayn The world of wrestling has been unrealistic for so long of why heels and faces get along and then they dont and that doesnt make sense to the common eye but there are ways to explain it but I know it sounds Russo esque but if you wanted to bring it up in storyline Russo is a reality show writer and he tried to screw WCW on behalf of WWE and scripted it fully and the reasons why wrestlers couldnt say shit in storyline because they signed NDA clauses and they can only do it in a general sense just like you can say that minorities who express hatred for the US empire have to generalize their point of view. You could correlate this to real life like how actors have stage names but have a real name like Emilio Estavez isnt his real name so why cant wrestlers in storyline have a stage name I just think if you expose it it will be this generations job to undo it all so wrestling can be presented in more reality based and focus on the wrestling.You can even have a wrestler who sucks at promos have a creative team with him handing him notes for promos and he messes up his lines and loses it because he just wants to wrestle... there are so many layers and so many start overs for people who have been jobbing like Hawkins who could claim he was brought back to take dives WWE is a lot like the Us empire if it didnt happen in their territory it didnt happen and they have revivisionist history and claim because they are the biggest company they are the best company and I do feel WWE has been going this route for a long time with how transparent it was and that is why lines like when Cm punk says to Hunter “This isnt cm punk talking to triple h this phil brooks talking to paul levesque” How else could you explain lines like that. In storyline that Punk promo was them breaking the fourth wall within storyline even though it was scripted beforehand . i know Lavranski was not thrilled about the idea but its all in execution but thanks for letting me air it out but I just wanted to explain some brainstormed thoughts on what I envision so I hope someone from the show sees it but Im not expecting a reply and again I apologize for posting a long Russo esque idea but I am not trying to do what he did but something different and all the ideas have come from their program because they constantly bring up real life issues and blur the lines Thats why when Dolph complains and breaks the fourth wall because his character is also required to take dives and if he doesnt he getd screwed over like being out in impromptu matches or being concussed ... Im just trying to explain the confusion the IWC have with these type of promos and we dissect how it makes sense and it all can make sense and it can change for the better I sort of get what you're saying but you should never take it too far. I think it's ok to address "real life stuff" sometimes like a wrestler's family, because it doesn't contradict the fact that they are still a pro wrestler doing pro wrestling. Both can exist in unison and drawing attention to something that is usually kept private is ok because even in storyline the audience can accept that wrestlers have private lives. But when you break the fourth wall too much you destroy, little by little, what pro wrestling is. I think once in a while you could get away with a CM Punk type of character saying that the backstage writers are garbage, but that only works because it's the exception not the rule. If you had every wrestler come out and complain about scripted promos and having to do the job tonight, well then you don't have a pro wrestling show anymore you just have a documentary playing out before your eyes, which might be cool for one show but never on a weekly basis. Pro wrestling fans ultimately like pro wrestling because of what it is, not because of what it isn't.
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deezy
Misawa
Posts: 2,334
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Post by deezy on Oct 8, 2017 17:29:16 GMT -5
Kayfabe only worms if it's in the context of said universe.
Being a character 24/7 is just stupid.
Jaime and Cersei Lannister are not a real life couple....and bringing that into Game of Thrones would be dumb.
Rick talking with a British accent in Walking Dead would also be stupid.
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Post by Zekey on Oct 11, 2017 1:59:29 GMT -5
Kayfabe only worms if it's in the context of said universe. Being a character 24/7 is just stupid. Jaime and Cersei Lannister are not a real life couple....and bringing that into Game of Thrones would be dumb. Rick talking with a British accent in Walking Dead would also be stupid. Jamie and Cersie Lannister don't rely on the reactions of a live crowd. It helps me believe when I've only been exposed to the wrestlers' characters. But don't get me wrong, they have every right to be themselves when they're offscreen. I'm just speaking on my personal preference. Hanzi, I enjoyed your call this week 100x more than last week
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Post by The Overgiver on Oct 13, 2017 10:19:03 GMT -5
Kayfabe might have meant something in "real life" back in the 80's and prior to that, when the industry (wrestlers, promoters, etc) were still trying to protect the business and claim it was real, not predetermined, however you want to describe it. Since then, Kayfabe has just become another literary device, or plot mechanism, in the story telling that is pro wrestling.
It has evolved, and will always evolve. Most recently it has evolved into referencing the IWC and "rumours". This is just like playing off the live crowd and their reactions, but they're playing off the internet in a less immediate way.
Breaking Kayfabe, or breaking the 4th wall, is just another device to increase the realism and intensity of the story. It's not actually "real life", it's all a work.
To completely destroy kayfabe, would just be another work, and wouldn't actually mean anything. What would it achieve? You can pretend to be as real as you want in promos, but you're still going to have to pull your punches, jump for a chokeslam, and tap out to the STF. You still need to preserve characters and the thought that these matches are real and the titles mean something to these guys.
The only times things are "real" in pro wrestling and were not intended to happen on camera, or live, are actual human errors, like move botches, someone swearing due to a natural reaction (Mean Gene at the sign, Booker T calling Hogan a N**** because that is his natural vocabulary, etc.).
Everything else is a work, and always will be.
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Post by cleanfinish1 on Oct 29, 2017 0:36:12 GMT -5
Shut up Hanzi
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Post by Dr Van Nostren on Oct 30, 2017 18:43:30 GMT -5
In case the Law never really comes back...I just wanna say a word on some callers I enjoy.
- John in Oshawa makes me laugh every time cuz he seems to go to the most random topics. - Whatever happened to Greg in the Peg? - I like Rob in New Jersey, sounds like a fun guy to watch wrestling with. - HHH fan guy, love how he spins everything. - I'm always impressed with Jason's professionalism to callers who clearly have special needs. There was a call or two this past Sunday that I was begging him to hang up on, but he makes sure to let them try to get their point across before he ever cuts them off or tries to finish it for them. - Impact Ian, always fun to hear him call to defend Impact and jaw back and forth with the guys. - Jim in Virginia...he ONLY ever calls about the women, I assume he watches the rest of the show...but sometimes I'm not sure. I'm definitely curious. - Lastly, Hanzi. Every time they say Hanzi is calling, I say "Yo what's going on guys?" Always makes me chuckle how he starts the calls. I don't always agree with him, but he entertains me every time.
Guys, if we never hear from you all again, it's been a slice!
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Post by Gee Hall on Oct 30, 2017 19:20:46 GMT -5
In case the Law never really comes back...I just wanna say a word on some callers I enjoy. - John in Oshawa makes me laugh every time cuz he seems to go to the most random topics. - Whatever happened to Greg in the Peg? - I like Rob in New Jersey, sounds like a fun guy to watch wrestling with. - HHH fan guy, love how he spins everything. - I'm always impressed with Jason's professionalism to callers who clearly have special needs. There was a call or two this past Sunday that I was begging him to hang up on, but he makes sure to let them try to get their point across before he ever cuts them off or tries to finish it for them. - Impact Ian, always fun to hear him call to defend Impact and jaw back and forth with the guys. - Jim in Virginia...he ONLY ever calls about the women, I assume he watches the rest of the show...but sometimes I'm not sure. I'm definitely curious. - Lastly, Hanzi. Every time they say Hanzi is calling, I say "Yo what's going on guys?" Always makes me chuckle how he starts the calls. I don't always agree with him, but he entertains me every time. Guys, if we never hear from you all again, it's been a slice! RIP Baroni. I'm going to miss Guarav most of all.
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Post by elliott316 on Nov 1, 2017 17:30:48 GMT -5
Impact Ian got himself over only for the promotion to fold.
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