sluggo
Curtain Jerker
Posts: 145
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Post by sluggo on Aug 29, 2016 11:21:47 GMT -5
Don't think it's lazy at all. The new day are all black, is that lazy? Was the League of Nations a lazy idea? (They booked horribly.....) And as I said, when you have 4 performers who all have the same weakness sticking thrm together with one manager makes more sense then finding and paying 3-4 mouth pieces or letting them potentially flounder. The New Day weren't "booked", that was their own idea as no-one had anything else for them, it was only when they were basically allowed to do their own thing that it started to take off. And yes, the LON was lazy, hence why it didn't work, everyone saw through the fact it was just a poor attempt to strengthen Sheamus as a credible champ against Reigns using guys they didn't have anything else for. Once they had failed to get the golden boy over they were left to flounder. Putting Japanese guys together because, well, they're Japanese, wouldn't help anyone. Nakamura and Asuka have already proven they can get over fine by themselves, I can't see Ibushi being any different. Throwing them together would just confirm everyone's opinion that all Vince sees is their nationality and has no faith in them to get over by themselves. Putting guys together because they are alike has helps lots of people get over - as I pointed out, look at the New Day. They've proven they can get over NXT, and Tyler Breeze, the Assension, Vaudvillains, Bo Dallas, among others all got over in NXT as well. As I've said twice now, yes they are all Japanese but all speak English ok, as a 2nd language. Like Brock Lesnar having someone like Heyman next to them to the heavy lifting during live segments would help. So instead of introduce each individually with different mouth pieces, makes sense. And if in 3-6-12-18 months they find out that Nakamura (for example) doesn't need the mouth piece he can always break away from the group. What is the downside?
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sluggo
Curtain Jerker
Posts: 145
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Post by sluggo on Aug 29, 2016 11:24:40 GMT -5
That's exactly how it's similar to Brock. The 4 seem fine in controlled environments and shorts bursts, but would greatly benefit from having someone like Heymen to do the "heavy lifting" live and during long promos When did the crowd turn on Reigns? When he started talking, which is needed for top tier talent. And remember if at someone nakamura or Asoka or Ito etc...... Are no longer in need a mouth piece, you can always break them away, but if you start them on their own and it's an issue they may not recover. Reigns' promos were part of why the fans turned on him but I think it was more the fact WWE wanted him over the fans who at the time wanted Daniel Bryan way more. It was & is more a backlash towards WWE's booking and them choosing who they want to be the guy instead of listening to the crowd. So let me ask, who is this magical mouthpiece you'd put with Nakamura & others. Because honestly Paul Heyman is not the answer. Yeah Paul is fantastic with Brock but look at his track record with other "Heyman guys". Curtis Axel and Cesaro didn't benefit at all from Heyman. Outside of Heyman they have no other managers they could use. So to me it's not so much the case of guys needing a mouthpiece and more they have no one who can be one. The Bryan thing was absolutely part of it. But part of it was putting a mic in that guys hand. I'd go with Paul, and yes I think he is the answer. The issue with Ryback and Axel wasn't Heyman, it was booking them as jokes and using them as fodder for Punk. When he manages someone who is booked strong - Brock and Punk - they do great. And if they book Nakamura and co. weak they won't do well regardless if Heyman is with them or not.
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Post by Christian Small on Aug 29, 2016 12:07:29 GMT -5
Reigns' promos were part of why the fans turned on him but I think it was more the fact WWE wanted him over the fans who at the time wanted Daniel Bryan way more. It was & is more a backlash towards WWE's booking and them choosing who they want to be the guy instead of listening to the crowd. So let me ask, who is this magical mouthpiece you'd put with Nakamura & others. Because honestly Paul Heyman is not the answer. Yeah Paul is fantastic with Brock but look at his track record with other "Heyman guys". Curtis Axel and Cesaro didn't benefit at all from Heyman. Outside of Heyman they have no other managers they could use. So to me it's not so much the case of guys needing a mouthpiece and more they have no one who can be one. The Bryan thing was absolutely part of it. But part of it was putting a mic in that guys hand. I'd go with Paul, and yes I think he is the answer. The issue with Ryback and Axel wasn't Heyman, it was booking them as jokes and using them as fodder for Punk. When he manages someone who is booked strong - Brock and Punk - they do great. And if they book Nakamura and co. weak they won't do well regardless if Heyman is with them or not. The bigger problem is you don't physically have Heyman most of the time. He's only there when Brock is and has a ton of outside projects. Notice we haven't had a "Paul Heyman Guy" since Cesaro. I'd also not throw Punk in there as well as it was still Punk cutting 95% of those promos with Heyman chipping in. You're also talking about a guy they've signed for a ton of money (Brock) and your then WWE champ so of course they were booked strong. Heyman's problem when put with other guys is that he constantly talks about Brock and not about the guy he's with. I do agree that Heyman is great when they book who he's with strongly, however so many people see him as the "solution" to a guy and it just isn't. Heyman's also a better heel and Nakamura is a clear babyface right now.
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Post by kalgoroth on Aug 29, 2016 15:41:46 GMT -5
The New Day weren't "booked", that was their own idea as no-one had anything else for them, it was only when they were basically allowed to do their own thing that it started to take off. And yes, the LON was lazy, hence why it didn't work, everyone saw through the fact it was just a poor attempt to strengthen Sheamus as a credible champ against Reigns using guys they didn't have anything else for. Once they had failed to get the golden boy over they were left to flounder. Putting Japanese guys together because, well, they're Japanese, wouldn't help anyone. Nakamura and Asuka have already proven they can get over fine by themselves, I can't see Ibushi being any different. Throwing them together would just confirm everyone's opinion that all Vince sees is their nationality and has no faith in them to get over by themselves. Putting guys together because they are alike has helps lots of people get over - as I pointed out, look at the New Day. They've proven they can get over NXT, and Tyler Breeze, the Assension, Vaudvillains, Bo Dallas, among others all got over in NXT as well. As I've said twice now, yes they are all Japanese but all speak English ok, as a 2nd language. Like Brock Lesnar having someone like Heyman next to them to the heavy lifting during live segments would help. So instead of introduce each individually with different mouth pieces, makes sense. And if in 3-6-12-18 months they find out that Nakamura (for example) doesn't need the mouth piece he can always break away from the group. What is the downside? Because putting Dallas in a group of guys with nothing better to do has really helped him get over... You do raise a valid point though, maybe I am making the common mistake of thinking over in NXT equals over on the main shows. But then Nakamura has a charisma all of his own which in my opinion translates across no matter what language the audience understands. I get the feeling though that Vince will never really ever "get" him and he may end up as another Cesaro i.e. fans love him but the trigger is never fully pulled for that reason only. To answer your question about downside, I still think putting him and the other Japanese guys will hurt them right off the bat as rightly or wrongly the WWE Universe has been conditioned to think that foreign talent can't get over, so to put them together in a group where each individual's own merits are hidden or at best reduced in impact due to less individual exposure would only hinder them, no more so than with Nakamura. Generally speaking stables are formed to create synergy, to try to make the whole greater than the sum of its parts, whereas Nakamura is a whole unto himself!
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sluggo
Curtain Jerker
Posts: 145
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Post by sluggo on Aug 29, 2016 16:05:51 GMT -5
The Bryan thing was absolutely part of it. But part of it was putting a mic in that guys hand. I'd go with Paul, and yes I think he is the answer. The issue with Ryback and Axel wasn't Heyman, it was booking them as jokes and using them as fodder for Punk. When he manages someone who is booked strong - Brock and Punk - they do great. And if they book Nakamura and co. weak they won't do well regardless if Heyman is with them or not. The bigger problem is you don't physically have Heyman most of the time. He's only there when Brock is and has a ton of outside projects. Notice we haven't had a "Paul Heyman Guy" since Cesaro. I'd also not throw Punk in there as well as it was still Punk cutting 95% of those promos with Heyman chipping in. You're also talking about a guy they've signed for a ton of money (Brock) and your then WWE champ so of course they were booked strong. Heyman's problem when put with other guys is that he constantly talks about Brock and not about the guy he's with. I do agree that Heyman is great when they book who he's with strongly, however so many people see him as the "solution" to a guy and it just isn't. Heyman's also a better heel and Nakamura is a clear babyface right now. Well obvisouly he'd be there every Monday or Tuesday (I think Tuesday would be better) to manage his new clients. ANd yes you're right, Ryback and Axel were just fed to Punk to extend that feud. "Put him with Heyman and do nothing" certainly doesn't work. If you book the Japanese guys strong - let their work get them over in the ring and Heyman do it on the mic.......ANd Brock is a babyface a lot of nights, Heyman can work both ways no problem.
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sluggo
Curtain Jerker
Posts: 145
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Post by sluggo on Aug 29, 2016 16:11:51 GMT -5
Putting guys together because they are alike has helps lots of people get over - as I pointed out, look at the New Day. They've proven they can get over NXT, and Tyler Breeze, the Assension, Vaudvillains, Bo Dallas, among others all got over in NXT as well. As I've said twice now, yes they are all Japanese but all speak English ok, as a 2nd language. Like Brock Lesnar having someone like Heyman next to them to the heavy lifting during live segments would help. So instead of introduce each individually with different mouth pieces, makes sense. And if in 3-6-12-18 months they find out that Nakamura (for example) doesn't need the mouth piece he can always break away from the group. What is the downside? Because putting Dallas in a group of guys with nothing better to do has really helped him get over... You do raise a valid point though, maybe I am making the common mistake of thinking over in NXT equals over on the main shows. But then Nakamura has a charisma all of his own which in my opinion translates across no matter what language the audience understands. I get the feeling though that Vince will never really ever "get" him and he may end up as another Cesaro i.e. fans love him but the trigger is never fully pulled for that reason only. To answer your question about downside, I still think putting him and the other Japanese guys will hurt them right off the bat as rightly or wrongly the WWE Universe has been conditioned to think that foreign talent can't get over, so to put them together in a group where each individual's own merits are hidden or at best reduced in impact due to less individual exposure would only hinder them, no more so than with Nakamura. Generally speaking stables are formed to create synergy, to try to make the whole greater than the sum of its parts, whereas Nakamura is a whole unto himself! I don't think Nakamura will flounder the same way the guys I mentioned have, but its not a guarentee. And yes he, and Ito and Ibushi and Asuka do speak English, but do they do they speak it well and clearly enough to spar with someone on Miz tv? You;'re not wrong about the effects of a stable - but being tied to other guys isn't going to hurt Nakamura (it never hurt Flair or Michaels or HHH or the Rock or Taker etc...) but it could really help the other 3.
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Post by Christian Small on Aug 30, 2016 9:55:43 GMT -5
The bigger problem is you don't physically have Heyman most of the time. He's only there when Brock is and has a ton of outside projects. Notice we haven't had a "Paul Heyman Guy" since Cesaro. I'd also not throw Punk in there as well as it was still Punk cutting 95% of those promos with Heyman chipping in. You're also talking about a guy they've signed for a ton of money (Brock) and your then WWE champ so of course they were booked strong. Heyman's problem when put with other guys is that he constantly talks about Brock and not about the guy he's with. I do agree that Heyman is great when they book who he's with strongly, however so many people see him as the "solution" to a guy and it just isn't. Heyman's also a better heel and Nakamura is a clear babyface right now. Well obvisouly he'd be there every Monday or Tuesday (I think Tuesday would be better) to manage his new clients. ANd yes you're right, Ryback and Axel were just fed to Punk to extend that feud. "Put him with Heyman and do nothing" certainly doesn't work. If you book the Japanese guys strong - let their work get them over in the ring and Heyman do it on the mic.......ANd Brock is a babyface a lot of nights, Heyman can work both ways no problem. But like I mentioned Heyman has a bunch of outside projects he wants to do. I don't think he wants to be there full time, if he did then he would have been given someone by now.
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sluggo
Curtain Jerker
Posts: 145
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Post by sluggo on Aug 31, 2016 10:01:10 GMT -5
Well obvisouly he'd be there every Monday or Tuesday (I think Tuesday would be better) to manage his new clients. ANd yes you're right, Ryback and Axel were just fed to Punk to extend that feud. "Put him with Heyman and do nothing" certainly doesn't work. If you book the Japanese guys strong - let their work get them over in the ring and Heyman do it on the mic.......ANd Brock is a babyface a lot of nights, Heyman can work both ways no problem. But like I mentioned Heyman has a bunch of outside projects he wants to do. I don't think he wants to be there full time, if he did then he would have been given someone by now. I can't really speak to what Heyman would and would not do (none of us can) . From an "ideal stand point", thats who'd I'd get. He was ok with the increased work load a couple years ago during the Punk feud. If Heyman just doesn't want to be at that many shows right now......I think the idea is still a good one for all the reasons I mentioned, but I'm ignorant to all the possible options they have under contract or guys they don't have signed who might be good options for the role.
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Post by Christian Small on Aug 31, 2016 12:42:18 GMT -5
But like I mentioned Heyman has a bunch of outside projects he wants to do. I don't think he wants to be there full time, if he did then he would have been given someone by now. I can't really speak to what Heyman would and would not do (none of us can) . From an "ideal stand point", thats who'd I'd get. He was ok with the increased work load a couple years ago during the Punk feud. If Heyman just doesn't want to be at that many shows right now......I think the idea is still a good one for all the reasons I mentioned, but I'm ignorant to all the possible options they have under contract or guys they don't have signed who might be good options for the role. WWE don't really have that many managers under contract, Heyman was only bought in because of Lesnar's request. There's also not a great number of them on the indies either. WWE do have some good promo guys working backstage but they're typically in NXT teaching guys how to promo.
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deezy
Misawa
Posts: 2,334
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Post by deezy on Aug 31, 2016 20:06:07 GMT -5
Nakamura's English is better than any of our Japanese.....pretty myopic to think someone won't get over without speaking phono correctly.
Have we not learned anything from action movies?
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Post by kalgoroth on Sept 1, 2016 6:54:04 GMT -5
Well obvisouly he'd be there every Monday or Tuesday (I think Tuesday would be better) to manage his new clients. ANd yes you're right, Ryback and Axel were just fed to Punk to extend that feud. "Put him with Heyman and do nothing" certainly doesn't work. If you book the Japanese guys strong - let their work get them over in the ring and Heyman do it on the mic.......ANd Brock is a babyface a lot of nights, Heyman can work both ways no problem. But like I mentioned Heyman has a bunch of outside projects he wants to do. I don't think he wants to be there full time, if he did then he would have been given someone by now. The rumours are, now that ADR is on his way out again, that he was initially lured back with the promise of being paired with Heyman and a main event push. Instead he got Colter then the LON. Would have been interesting to see how they would have worked together. Interestingly it was meant to be McMahon himself who nixed the idea and gave him Colter. Maybe at this point he just sees Heyman as a 'Brock Lesnar guy'...!
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Post by Milky on Sept 1, 2016 16:37:01 GMT -5
I have to agree that Nakamura's English is pretty good. I think he's continually working on it too. He's easily at an intermediate level, which is enough to get by.
That being said, I don't think he'll be called up to the main roster any time this year. Joe should be the next one to go up.
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deezy
Misawa
Posts: 2,334
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Post by deezy on Sept 1, 2016 19:59:09 GMT -5
But like I mentioned Heyman has a bunch of outside projects he wants to do. I don't think he wants to be there full time, if he did then he would have been given someone by now. The rumours are, now that ADR is on his way out again, that he was initially lured back with the promise of being paired with Heyman and a main event push. Instead he got Colter then the LON. Would have been interesting to see how they would have worked together. Interestingly it was meant to be McMahon himself who nixed the idea and gave him Colter. Maybe at this point he just sees Heyman as a 'Brock Lesnar guy'...! Because Heyman makes anyone hes been paired with since being Brock's advocate? I never cared about Del Rio, will laugh and point at people who pretend he's awesome on the Indies and Lucha like the last time....even though he was the exact same character and did the exact same stuff in the ring.
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sluggo
Curtain Jerker
Posts: 145
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Post by sluggo on Sept 14, 2016 11:32:29 GMT -5
Nakamura's English is better than any of our Japanese.....pretty myopic to think someone won't get over without speaking phono correctly. Have we not learned anything from action movies? Our Japanese has absolutely nothing to do with anything (also - how do you know how good or poor my Japanese is?). I have to agree that Nakamura's English is pretty good. I think he's continually working on it too. He's easily at an intermediate level, which is enough to get by. That being said, I don't think he'll be called up to the main roster any time this year. Joe should be the next one to go up. There is a big difference between "intermediate level" and being able to spar on live tv with people like Miz or Jericho or Kevin Owens etc... I find the opposition to the idea.....puzzling. Pairing him with someone who can do that doesn't take away from his talent or likability etc... at all.
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deezy
Misawa
Posts: 2,334
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Post by deezy on Sept 14, 2016 13:28:20 GMT -5
Nakamura's English is better than any of our Japanese.....pretty myopic to think someone won't get over without speaking phono correctly. Have we not learned anything from action movies? Our Japanese has absolutely nothing to do with anything (also - how do you know how good or poor my Japanese is?). I have to agree that Nakamura's English is pretty good. I think he's continually working on it too. He's easily at an intermediate level, which is enough to get by. That being said, I don't think he'll be called up to the main roster any time this year. Joe should be the next one to go up. There is a big difference between "intermediate level" and being able to spar on live tv with people like Miz or Jericho or Kevin Owens etc... I find the opposition to the idea.....puzzling. Pairing him with someone who can do that doesn't take away from his talent or likability etc... at all. Thinking someone can't get over because they speak broken English is silly.....you're focusing on the non issue. Biggest action stars could barely speak English and they were massive stars.
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