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Post by groovyphoenix on Nov 17, 2014 15:10:24 GMT -5
John and Wai (And the other Law folks) keep mentioning how "controversial" it is to have men fighting women...
Fact is, it's been happening for quite some time.
In Ontario a women wrestler from Quebe took her battle to the Human rights commision for the right to wrestle men. She won her battle.
This is the year 2014 gentlemen, lets get our heads out of our backsides. Women can compete with men in a sport (entertainment) field just as any man can, the fact is, this is what MAKES it more acceptable, because it is "organized violence" it's not violence againsta woman, it's violence against a fellow wrestler.
I find it entertaining, sure the forgone conclusion is "women are weaker" tell that to Chyna when she competed against Jeff Jarrett, I think she had more muscles, Tell that to Lufisto who I bet could legit kick any guys backside, and tell that to Kong if she wanted to fight men (wait she kicked Mancows ass once!) my point is that saying its not your cup of tea is fine, saying its "wrong" and painting it broadstroke brush is not subjective reporting, its your opinion and you have a right to it, same as I can find it perfectly OK to have these battles and find them entertaining, you can choose to not find them so.
It's called choice.
We all have it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 22:43:15 GMT -5
John and Wai (And the other Law folks) keep mentioning how "controversial" it is to have men fighting women... Fact is, it's been happening for quite some time. In Ontario a women wrestler from Quebe took her battle to the Human rights commision for the right to wrestle men. She won her battle. This is the year 2014 gentlemen, lets get our heads out of our backsides. Women can compete with men in a sport (entertainment) field just as any man can, the fact is, this is what MAKES it more acceptable, because it is "organized violence" it's not violence againsta woman, it's violence against a fellow wrestler. I find it entertaining, sure the forgone conclusion is "women are weaker" tell that to Chyna when she competed against Jeff Jarrett, I think she had more muscles, Tell that to Lufisto who I bet could legit kick any guys backside, and tell that to Kong if she wanted to fight men (wait she kicked Mancows ass once!) my point is that saying its not your cup of tea is fine, saying its "wrong" and painting it broadstroke brush is not subjective reporting, its your opinion and you have a right to it, same as I can find it perfectly OK to have these battles and find them entertaining, you can choose to not find them so. It's called choice. We all have it. Depicting male on female violence is going to get resistance from a lot of people such as a man simulating a punch to a woman's face or cracking her over the head with a chair. Spike TV outright banned any depiction of such on their television, as did TSN in the late 90's, 2000s when it came to pro wrestling. Otherside of the chair shot to Sexy Star, I haven't had a strong feeling one way or the other, if it works for them - great - but I anticipate more resistance from a sponsorship and overall taste level the larger this show grows. |
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Post by RKing85 on Nov 17, 2014 23:45:15 GMT -5
as someone who has watched a lot of CHIKARA, Candice LaRae in PWG, etc. I have no problems with men vs. women match-ups. Yeah it's unrealistic at times, but it's pro wrestling. You have to suspend your disbelief anyways. I have no problems with it on the whole.
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Post by Christian Small on Nov 18, 2014 5:21:06 GMT -5
To me I'm not against it but it's how it's done that can bug me. The problem I've heard in Lucha Underground is so far it's just men beating up women. You can work it better, Candice LeRae in PWG is a great example. In her matches a lot of the men are reluctant to throw punches at her so they stick to wrestling, they may snap later on and punch her getting a good reaction. It also depends on the woman wrestling, women like Sara Del Rey & Amazing Kong could do matches against men as they were usually as big, sometimes bigger then the men they were working. Veda Scott just finished a feud with Gregory Irons in AIW and again Veda wasn't a great deal smaller then Iron's so it made sense. Plus some male/female matches were great Del Rey vs. Castagnoli in CHIKARA being the stand out to me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 9:37:20 GMT -5
I was far more offended by Big Zeke being on my television screen than any man vs woman matches.
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Post by groovyphoenix on Nov 18, 2014 14:26:27 GMT -5
To me I'm not against it but it's how it's done that can bug me. The problem I've heard in Lucha Underground is so far it's just men beating up women. You can work it better, Candice LeRae in PWG is a great example. In her matches a lot of the men are reluctant to throw punches at her so they stick to wrestling, they may snap later on and punch her getting a good reaction. It also depends on the woman wrestling, women like Sara Del Rey & Amazing Kong could do matches against men as they were usually as big, sometimes bigger then the men they were working. Veda Scott just finished a feud with Gregory Irons in AIW and again Veda wasn't a great deal smaller then Iron's so it made sense. Plus some male/female matches were great Del Rey vs. Castagnoli in CHIKARA being the stand out to me. But.... It's only been 3 shows, and while it's 3 acts (all on Sexy Star so far) the fact is that it is building up there is a story, we're a bit behind on them due to the fact we are learning of their "history" together, such as Blue Demon was a mentor to Sexy Star which is why she came to his aid in the second show, the first show? An introduction to Sexy Star and that she competes vs men. I'm not saying its perfect so far but it is something of a story line. Also from the interview John did with Chavo, it seems this is a "story" as oposed to just random violence, it's building to something, I'm willing to wait and see. Vis a Vis : TSN outright banning the shit, yes, that occured and was so stupid, Wait, Here's the wind up! *BLACK OUT* Oh look the women is on the floor... Wait, so I guess the power bomb to May Young didn't really happen just because she's already laying there prone on the ground in a broken shard of a table right? Idiotic, and then their defense was worse, "CRTC made us do it" yeah bullshit, fight for your right not to be censored, I guess it's ok to show CSI shows where men put knives to women and kill them etc, but it's not ok to power bomb one in a more comical setting? Irony is that CRTC DOES react in this fashion! |
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Post by richiecuk on Nov 18, 2014 14:43:26 GMT -5
I guess its just personal taste tbh, but as John and Court have both said, Court said it Konan on MLW its more than possible to make sponsors very reluctant to get behind it, personally I'm a huge fan of AAA and watched it pretty much every day for a while on youtube and other sites and its very common to have 4v4 tag matches in which you get one man one woman one mini and one exotico per team and I enjoy it very much but again i am a long time AAA fan and viewer so i guess I'm just desensitized to it but again I can see why some people wouldnt like it!!
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Post by Christian Small on Nov 18, 2014 15:45:26 GMT -5
To me I'm not against it but it's how it's done that can bug me. The problem I've heard in Lucha Underground is so far it's just men beating up women. You can work it better, Candice LeRae in PWG is a great example. In her matches a lot of the men are reluctant to throw punches at her so they stick to wrestling, they may snap later on and punch her getting a good reaction. It also depends on the woman wrestling, women like Sara Del Rey & Amazing Kong could do matches against men as they were usually as big, sometimes bigger then the men they were working. Veda Scott just finished a feud with Gregory Irons in AIW and again Veda wasn't a great deal smaller then Iron's so it made sense. Plus some male/female matches were great Del Rey vs. Castagnoli in CHIKARA being the stand out to me. But.... It's only been 3 shows, and while it's 3 acts (all on Sexy Star so far) the fact is that it is building up there is a story, we're a bit behind on them due to the fact we are learning of their "history" together, such as Blue Demon was a mentor to Sexy Star which is why she came to his aid in the second show, the first show? An introduction to Sexy Star and that she competes vs men. I'm not saying its perfect so far but it is something of a story line. Also from the interview John did with Chavo, it seems this is a "story" as oposed to just random violence, it's building to something, I'm willing to wait and see. Vis a Vis : TSN outright banning the shit, yes, that occured and was so stupid, Wait, Here's the wind up! *BLACK OUT* Oh look the women is on the floor... Wait, so I guess the power bomb to May Young didn't really happen just because she's already laying there prone on the ground in a broken shard of a table right? Idiotic, and then their defense was worse, "CRTC made us do it" yeah bullshit, fight for your right not to be censored, I guess it's ok to show CSI shows where men put knives to women and kill them etc, but it's not ok to power bomb one in a more comical setting? Irony is that CRTC DOES react in this fashion! My post was more focused on men vs. women matches in general. I've honestly not watched Lucha Underground at all so I've gone off what they've said on the Law. I understand it's still early on in their run and it's part of a bigger storyline. |
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Post by Milky on Nov 18, 2014 15:50:07 GMT -5
The sponsorship issue is definitely a potential problem going forward.
However, so far I personally haven't been offended, apart from the chair-shot. But that was more of a head trauma issue than a gender issue for me.
The first Sexy Star match had a botched finish, so you can discount that. Then Sexy Star won her match and then there was the aforementioned chair-shot. So it's a mixed bag and still early days, but as Nicole Matthews said on Colt's podcast, any type of wrestling can be either good or bad, it's just how you do it. And as Nicole herself has proved, men wrestling women can work under the right circumstances.
I'll have to wait to see more of the booking before I have a definitive opinion on the matter, though.
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Post by groovyphoenix on Nov 19, 2014 8:42:00 GMT -5
Having been in and met Lufisto when she was in the indy area of Ottawa, I can vouch for one thing, many times the booker would book her to wrestle women, she was if anything inter-gender, and many of the boys made jokes behind her back about her packing something between her legs, etc etc, uncalled for really because she was (in my opinion mind you) quite a pretty lady and feminine outside the ring, inside she wrestled hardcore style and never gave up. If anything I think some of the guys were intimidated by her "in your face" attitude and no backing down.
She's the kind of girl that you could easily believe would kick your ass in the ring and take no prisoners, but still the guys made a stygma of it.
So maybe thats part of the issue, some of the guys in America anyway don't see a female as equal, don't get me wrong the "AJ's" look etc of WWE certainly would not be convincing in my opinion but Sexy Star? She looks quite capable IMHO to kick a guys ass.
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Post by groovyphoenix on Nov 19, 2014 13:34:58 GMT -5
I'm somewhat confused: your original post begins with people saying men-women wrestling is "controversial" and apparently disprove that statement by saying it has been happening for a long time (even if it had been happening for a long time on the major international promotions, it could still be controversial). Then, before saying whether a person likes/approves/wants to watch this is a "choice" or subjective, you say that everyone (or at least people who don't like male-female wrestling) need to get their heads out of their backsides. Then, in a later reply, that "some of the guys in America" (I guess you speak for all of Canada and the rest of the world) don't see a woman as an equal. These kind of comments don't encourage much of a discussion. If you just posted this to express your opinion to balance those who apparently think it is "wrong" or "controversial", fine. My original statement was in fact an opinion, I have seen the behavior in the locker rooms (a fact) where men (not myself but men wrestlers) appear to believe that Lufisto in this case was inferior and should not be in the ring with them, it would make them somehow look less manly etc etc. I don't agree with that statement one bit when it comes to Lufisto, John and Wai and ther others of Law are indeed calling it controversial I am not nor do I see the big deal about it, so yes its my opinion that those who think it is controversial need to get their heads out of their backside if its all about " oh a man hit a woman" let's just drop the facade that only male on female violence occurs, Female on male violence happens as well (John Bobbit anyone? I'm sure he didn't think it was cool to have it chopped off) why is it that in his case men probably winced and then made jokes about it? Why is it that it's so shocking that a man hits a woman when in fact its been occurring for ages and ages, all wrestling has ever done is in fact bring to the forefront what everyone is scared to say or speak up on. I just think its much ado about nothing overall. I don't see where its a lack of discussion you're free to express your thoughts on the matter and that's what threads are for. |
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deezy
Misawa
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Post by deezy on Nov 22, 2014 7:55:01 GMT -5
Ray Rice.
/thread
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