Let's talk Cruiserweights

[deezy]

I've just seen the Monday Night War show that was focusing "The Flight Of The Cruiserweight" and boy was it fun hearing names like La Parka being shown on WWE TV, one could say that they were bringing an innovative style to North America, and they helped the notion of the smaller guys can draw money.....Or you can say their role in WCW's rise wasn't as major as most "experts" say they were.



I for one, think they were filler roles, and were there to keep the "wrestling fans" happy. Wrestling fans like wrestling, "Casual fans" like characters, like the nWo, Sting, Goldberg, Piper, Flair all the guys on top of the WCW pecking order. which was the main reason people tuned in, the fans of match quality would go nuts for cruiserweight matches, but they didn't buy their tickets for Dean Malenko facing Rey Mysterio. They got a show from them, and were satisfied with their matches, but let's face it. They would most likely mark oout more for Hogan talking shit and Sting descending from the rafters to give him a Scorpion Deathdrop.



I certainly don't think they drew the ratings numbers that WCW had in 97 or 98. But I'm not saying they didn't do their jobs well, you need a good opening matchup to a PPV, or a two segment match to fill up a Nitro. but let's not look back with rose coloured glasses and act like they were this game changer who made WCW the powerhouse that they were. They kept the wrestling fans attention, but they didn't keep the interest of the casual audience who drew the numbers that made WCW the number one company for two years.



WWF getting their product over to newer and bigger heights of popularity off characters and storylines just proved that. You can't attract a large casual audience with just good wrestling.



Disagree?

[cleanfinish1]

Ughh....

[deezy]

Oct 16, 2014 17:55:28 GMT -5 cleanfinish1 said:

Ughh....

Thanks for a well thought out counterpoint. 

[RKing85]

motherfucker. typed out a long thing and then my computer froze.

I agree for the most part. The cruiserweights put on amazing matches that were new and fresh to the North American audience. But I also think at time they are inflated because they had such crap around them. Look at Liger/Pillman from the first Nitro. For a long time all everybody talked about was what an amazing match that was. But for the past 2-3 months, since it got put up on the Network, every single review I have heard of it has been, "um, yeah, actually not nearly as good as I remember it being".

Cruiserweights were brought in for work rate. Not to make WCW money. The boom period $$$ was not because of the CW's. I'm sure the IWC wants to believe that the WCW turnaround was in part because of the lighter weight guys, but the old WWF guys and Sting and Flair brought in the majority of the bacon for WCW.

[Milky]

Define cruiserweight.

I think a lot of guys in WCW changed the way smaller wrestlers were viewed, and you could argue they were the impetus for the smaller man movement that today brings us popular characters like CM Punk or Daniel Bryan. People like Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio, Chris Benoit, Brian Pillman, and Chris Jericho did a lot to transition from the big men of the 80s mentality to the smaller man of the late 90s/2000s. They laid the groundwork in North America for what exists today - smaller wrestlers with better workrate.

[deezy]

So it's their fault the business can't attract more than wrestling fans to watch any wrestling show? 

Joking obviously.

But, I don't get the upping the workrate....these guys brought in more moves, and did them more often and faster, but the loudest reactions of the night were still the older guys doing less. Hogan would get more with a simple shoulderblock and cupping his ear than the guys diving around the ring and doing toprope frankensteiners. 

I always thought the term "work" meant hustle, as in working(hustling) the fans into a frenzy to either hate you or liking you. So they will pay money to either see you get beat up, or beat someone up. Like Carny crews talking you up to play their rigged games or acting like you couldn't do it when they see you with a woman. 

And by that understanding, I feel like the guys who did less to get over, are actually the better workers.

[RKing85]

ECW had some great cruiserweight matches.

But 90% of fans remember ECW as being 90% hardcore stuff.

[thelaw]

WCW had multiple shows/hours to fill, and they wanted to keep people glued to the tv. So, they just hired whomever the people with influence thought were entertaining for the wrestling shows. Plus, this style was not seen on WWF tv which means that WCW used this to differentiate themselves from Vince.

Konnan knew the luchadores, so that probably helped those guys get into WCW. It would not surprise me at all if Mike Tenay was also pushing for the guys who were better workers regardless of whether or not they had good promos or even spoke English. I say this because Tenay would often show up at the booth when these new guys were introduced to the audience.

So no, WCW never put the cruiserweight division in that high of a regard. They were there to keep you entertained in between the major storylines & the heavyweight title matches.

If WCW valued the cruiseweight, then the announcers would have only commented about the matches themselves. Instead, too often they were instead promoting what was coming up later on that night. Plus if that division was of any importance, there would not have been so many unhappy people wanting to leave because they felt like they were going nowhere.

[Milky]

Oct 17, 2014 17:30:42 GMT -5 deezy said:

So it's their fault the business can't attract more than wrestling fans to watch any wrestling show? 

Joking obviously.

But, I don't get the upping the workrate....these guys brought in more moves, and did them more often and faster, but the loudest reactions of the night were still the older guys doing less. Hogan would get more with a simple shoulderblock and cupping his ear than the guys diving around the ring and doing toprope frankensteiners. 

I always thought the term "work" meant hustle, as in working(hustling) the fans into a frenzy to either hate you or liking you. So they will pay money to either see you get beat up, or beat someone up. Like Carny crews talking you up to play their rigged games or acting like you couldn't do it when they see you with a woman. 

And by that understanding, I feel like the guys who did less to get over, are actually the better workers.

Nope. The term you are describing is "getting heat" or "getting over." But the term "a good worker" always applies to one's workrate and ability.

You keep bringing up Hulk Hogan as a prime example of a poor worker who got over, but I'd say guys like Hogan are the exception rather than the rule. Hulk Hogan would be over in any era due to his charisma. But if this was 1984 instead of 2014 then Ryback would be a big star, and that's the difference.

[deezy]

Ryback at one point in 2012 was a big star.....number two babyface in the company until those string of PPVs where he was fed to some Chicago jibroni because he had to hold a title long enough so he could give it to an even bigger star.

"Getting heat" and "getting over".....same exact thing, getting the audience to react the way you want them to.

You're overcomplicating something that shouldn't be complicated....Either you get the job done by doing the least, or you have to overcompensate by doing too much, if I was a boss on any jobsite what is the better quality?

I don't particularly care for the term "workrate" because it's so subjective and makes people mistake quantity over quality....it makes modern day fans who look back on Bruno, Chief Jay, and Superstar as "bad workers".....they sold out the Garden how many times? Like that doesn't mean they weren't the best at what they did....get people to give enough of a shit to pay to see them and too my understanding, that is the entire point of pro-wrestling....what it was founded on....getting marks to watch you.

I'm willing to predict that in ten years time, if the terms good worker and poor worker keep this pace, indy wrestlers and neckbeard fans will look back on guys like Flair, Bret, and Steamboat and say those guys were poor workers, "Bret only had 5 moves" "Flair only had that shitty figure four and chops and a million backdrops...how lame" "Steamboat had no moves at all, and he did a shitty crossbody".

[RKing85]

off topic to the original point, but I see you brought up Ryback there.

Starting with his title loss to CM Punk, Ryback went 1-12-0-1 in his next 14 PPV matches.

[chrisarrant]

I've always been interested in the overlooked time where WWF brought in luchadores as part of a AAA/WWF talent trade -- Pierroth, Cibernetico, Latin Lover, and even Mil Mascaras for a time. Wonder what would have happened if that would have been treated better.

[deezy]

All you need to see is the opener for that Light Heavyweight tournament to see what WWF fans thought of Lucha Libre as zero fucks were given about Super Crazy and Essa Rios. Probably was the same match where Vince and Co. came out thinking that Luchadores didn't know how to work and were phased out in faovur of Sasuke and Taka.

[cleanfinish1]

Oct 16, 2014 19:07:07 GMT -5 deezy said:

Oct 16, 2014 17:55:28 GMT -5 cleanfinish1 said:

Ughh....

Thanks for a well thought out counterpoint. 

Ughhh Yep!

[kidkash202]

Oct 19, 2014 14:20:35 GMT -5 chrisarrant said:

I've always been interested in the overlooked time where WWF brought in luchadores as part of a AAA/WWF talent trade -- Pierroth, Cibernetico, Latin Lover, and even Mil Mascaras for a time. Wonder what would have happened if that would have been treated better.

Remember the Super Astros show?

Pantera used to put on performances. I agree, people often ignore the WWF/AAA talent exchange for whatever reason. I enjoyed it.