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Post by J.B (@Condoonthemoon) on Apr 15, 2014 16:49:56 GMT -5
So I am going to kill the WWE in 6 months by signing Adam Cole, Kevin Steen and Bennett to developmental deals? How did the company survive with guys like Seth Rollins, Cesaro and Sami Zayn being signed to NXT? Look at the WWE Roster who are the guys that have had success. A lot of them have roots from ROH. Do they all workout? No see Chris Hero as a case and point. I didn't even state that Cole would go on to be anything beyond a guy that could compete on this roster. Never said he is a future WWE Champion or anything like that. You mention promotions in Japan and Mexico how has that worked out for WWE? Sin Cara was great right? I am pretty sure if you ran the WWE you would find a way to kill it faster than me. Not that I was applying for the job or saying I would have the first idea how to run or book a promotion on that level.
I stated that a guy has enough talent that I would offer him a an opportunity to develop it. WWE just signed a washed out NFL Player and are hoping to train him and make him something. I don't hate on them doing that. They are just attempting to look for talent where ever they can find it.
Your one angry dude like chill the hell out.
James
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 17:34:22 GMT -5
/cancer Kevin Steen sucks. Mike Bennett sucks. Adam Cole sucks. None of those indy geeks can draw as well as Batista. American indy wrestling is dead. The people who watch shit like ROH and PWG don't even like it. If James Borbath was booking WWE then the company would be out of business in six months. If you look back at WWE's biggest drawing periods in the modern era, the Hogan era and Austin era, you'll see distinctive heavyweight characters and energy throughout the whole show. Now everybody looks the same, wrestles the same, works rest holds and talks slower than a stroke patient. It's not the worst wrestling product I've ever seen but it's the most boring period I've ever lived through. Changing those things would be a start but they have a long-term talent problem too. Everybody they train is shitty. Phase out the ones who are currently on the roster, cancel NXT, burn down the Performance Center and get some working agreements with foreign promotions. Send prospective talents to AAA or CMLL, or NJPW or AJPW, get them experience working real matches with different styles in front of proper wrestling crowds. Fire all the agents that are telling workers to slow down. Give Vince McMahon coffee after coffee until his steroid-enlarged heart explodes and he dies so the company can free itself from his obsessive-compulsive mania that comes up with ideas like removing the "Antonio" from Cesaro's name and thousands of other minor changes that have made things worse over the years. Don't just change the talent and staff, change the fans too. Deliberately seek to provoke and drive-away the smarks who hijack the shows and encourage the casual fans to misbehave. Let them gnash their teeth and rage on the internet instead of in the arena. Get rid of Daniel Bryan, don't bring CM Punk back, hire and push bodybuilders with colourful outfits and big personalities. Things like that. Sorry, but this is just untrue. Look at the most over star in the WWE right now and think about where he came from. Answer: ROH. Also, CM Punk's promo from a few years back certainly did draw fans back, at least until they realised that everything was still pretty much the same as when they originally left the product. I'm not saying Adam Cole is the messiah (he even had a WWE try-out and they passed on him for now) but there is a proven track record of ROH guys making it in the WWE. The NXT show and WWE Developmental are good concepts, but they are more miss than hit in terms of producing guys from scratch who become huge draws. In my opinion there is no substitute for working territories/indy's; the Performance Center is better served as a finishing school to polish guys in the WWE style who already know how to work and get over. Just for fun here is a list of the most over/interesting regular-working WWE Superstars in the last year or so and where they came from: Daniel Bryan - ROH John Cena - WWE CM Punk - ROH Brock Lesnar - WWE Triple H - WWE Of that list you've got more WWE guys than ROH guys, but I don't think you should discount the impact that ROH has made on the WWE's current main event picture. Plus, Triple H isn't really a full time active wrestler nor is Brock for that matter, and CM Punk is gone, so really it's just John Cena and Daniel Bryan as your top stars. That's pretty much 50/50. Nobody is buying a ticket to see Batista at this point. Here is a list of the current WWE talent who seem to be the future of the WWE and a look at where they came from: Bray Wyatt - WWE Cesaro - ROH Roman Reigns - WWE Seth Rollins - ROH Dean Ambrose - Various indy's This list is also pretty much 50/50, though the future seems slightly skewed in favour of indy guys. Again, I don't think you can discount the impact or importance of working American indy's during the formative years of one's future WWE career. Mexico and Japan are also good places to go, but even so, you can work lucha or strong-style in North America too and American promotions tend to be better for American/Canadian indy guys to develop their promo skills. Daniel Bryan isn't WWE's most over star. He doesn't sell the most merchandise. His house shows sell less tickets than the other house show group with Cena. You're basing your statement on who gets the loudest reactions and that is inaccurate because the 10% of bitter smarks are louder than anybody else and drown out people who disagree. CM Punk's promo is a prime example of how worthless and destructive smarks are to WWE's business. The promo itself sucked but internet nerds jizzed their pants because he referenced things they know about and other people didn't, making them feel special because they felt more knowledgable than the casual fans beside them. "Ohhh, he said Colt Cabana!" Look at the buyrate for Money In The Bank that year, it was lower than the 2013 buyrate which was headlined by John Cena vs Mark Henry(!). Your list of "most interesting" workers is highly subjective. A more accurate picture of WWE's stars could be drawn from who they've put the world title on. Here are the world champions since 2010: Daniel Bryan (ROH) Randy Orton (WWE) John Cena (WWE) CM Punk (ROH) The Rock (WWE) Alberto Del Rio (Mexico) Rey Mysterio (Mexico) The Miz (WWE) Sheamus (WWE) Batista (WWE) Triple H (WWE) Edge (WWE) Dolph Ziggler (WWE) Big Show (WWE) Mark Henry (WWE) Christian (WWE) Kane (WWE) Jack Swagger (WWE) Chris Jericho (Various) Daniel Bryan and CM Punk's title runs were not pushed. They were never given the main event spots on PPVs unless they were wrestling a bigger name, such as John Cena or The Rock. The exception was Hell In A Cell 2012 when Punk main evented with Ryback, which actually did draw - thanks to Ryback. Your list of future stars is also subjective. I don't think anybody sees Seth Rollins as a future world champion. Dean Ambrose will struggle too now that the brand split has ended and they're not putting the belt on random lower midcarders anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 18:06:25 GMT -5
So I am going to kill the WWE in 6 months by signing Adam Cole, Kevin Steen and Bennett to developmental deals? How did the company survive with guys like Seth Rollins, Cesaro and Sami Zayn being signed to NXT? Look at the WWE Roster who are the guys that have had success. A lot of them have roots from ROH. Do they all workout? No see Chris Hero as a case and point. I didn't even state that Cole would go on to be anything beyond a guy that could compete on this roster. Never said he is a future WWE Champion or anything like that. You mention promotions in Japan and Mexico how has that worked out for WWE? Sin Cara was great right? I am pretty sure if you ran the WWE you would find a way to kill it faster than me. Not that I was applying for the job or saying I would have the first idea how to run or book a promotion on that level. I stated that a guy has enough talent that I would offer him a an opportunity to develop it. WWE just signed a washed out NFL Player and are hoping to train him and make him something. I don't hate on them doing that. They are just attempting to look for talent where ever they can find it. Your one angry dude like chill the hell out. James /cancer Sin Cara was half as pushed as Daniel Bryan and was still one of the top merchandise sellers and a big money maker since his mask was so expensive. If he wasn't a success then why is WWE keeping the gimmick alive even though the original worker has left? And while we're on Mexican workers, why not mention Alberto Del Rio who has had a pretty good run without aggressive internet smarks shoving him down the company's throat? Or Rey Mysterio, an all time great, big draw and big merchandise seller for the last ten years (and in WCW for ten years before that) who smarks have recently started booing? It shows that the 10% don't actually care about the revolutionary in-ring worker than Mysterio has been, they don't care about wrestling, they just want to cheer the boring indy geeks and hijack shows because doing that makes them feel special and smart. The kind of people who cheer for Daniel Bryan and CM Punk are only interested in getting themselves over. "Look how smart I am! I'm cheering CM Punk! YES! YES! YES!"
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Post by Milky on Apr 16, 2014 3:22:49 GMT -5
Lariato, quite simply you are out to lunch.
If you can’t see that Daniel Bryan is over then there’s no helping you. You can talk merch sales until the cows come home but at the end of the day he does sell a lot of it. And I mean A LOT. True, John Cena sells more, but according to The Wrestling Observer Newsletter, Daniel Bryan holds the #2 spot in merchandise sales and his popularity is still on the rise, whereas John Cena’s has plateaued. But, even if Daniel Bryan fails to reach #1 in WWE merchandise sales, is it really such a negative to be #2? If you think so then I am inclined to think that you would be a worse booker than Vince Russo.
You are right that in the 80s and 90s bigger bodies were the name of the game. Even HBK, who was considered the exception to the rule, was 6’1” and well over 200lbs; but times have changed. Nobody is cheering Daniel Bryan simply because he’s a small guy. They are cheering him because he is a great in-ring worker and has an interesting character that he is able to portray and get over with the audience. Sorry to say but Sheamus still hasn’t mastered either of those traits.
At the end of the day both of our lists are subjective so that is a frivolous debate. Equally, you have your opinion and I have mine; you think that this is the most boring period of wrestling in the modern era but I would say the period right after WCW folded was the most boring, before indy groups like ROH really had a chance to establish themselves and the WWE were just on cruise control. You could argue that ROH still haven’t established themselves (which you have done) but I would argue they are established and that the WWE is currently bearing the fruits of ROH’s labour as we speak.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 10:54:29 GMT -5
It's nuts to say that people who cheer Bryan are just trying to get themselves over. You can argue that a lot of people cheer him because they like the catchphrase, but he has kids, men, women, teens, etc. on their feet going nuts every RAW...I doubt those people give a shit about getting themselves over.
If the only people cheering Daniel Bryan were the fans who go to shows always wearing the same clothing, then you could argue that they just want to get themselves over...but that logic falls apart when there is an entire arena going nuts.
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Post by J.B (@Condoonthemoon) on Apr 16, 2014 11:58:36 GMT -5
Also it is kind of funny that ROH is actually the company that is bringing New Japan Pro Wrestling into their shows and embracing them yet we have people on here bashing ROH performers compared to Japan and Mexico. In the end ROH has been the best source of talent for WWE stars that have continued to grow and rise on the main stage of WWE. Defending BotchCara with Merch sales is pretty damn hilarious. The mask is over not the guy in that is all this has proven. Put same mask on Sami Zayn does it still sell....probably. I respect Rey but like many guys regardless where they come from I just see his time as done. We never even saw the best of Rey in WWE he was at his peak in WCW just doing some amazing work with Eddie Chris Jericho and many others.
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Post by Patrick McFadden on Apr 16, 2014 20:37:43 GMT -5
Some interesting thoughts, have to disagree about Rey though. Might be mistaken but it still sounds like he gets quite the response whenever he's out there. The Rumble was an aberration and had nothing to do with him and everything to do with Daniel Bryan. In fact, I'd say part of his problem as a character is how safe he is. He sells merch so there's no way they'd ever unmask or turn him heel, the best he can hope for is to languish in the midcard until he eventually retires.
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